How over 90 Nigerians were extra-judicially killed in Indonesia – Kalu Joseph
Written by Hamza Idris, who was in Indonesia
Sunday, 20 May 2012 05:00
TRUST
Mr. Kalu Joseph Okafor lived in Indonesia for over 17 years. He is the President of the Nigerians in Diaspora there. In this interview, he said as many Nigerians live decent lives there, over 300 are languishing in jail as 90 others were killed extra-judiciary. He lamented the attitude of Nigerian authorities towards its citizens and wondered how a third world country has become a hub for African immigrants.
May we know you please?
I am Kalu Joseph Okafor. I am a native of Omo Ezechi, Bende local government area of Abia State.
How long have you been in Indonesia?
I have been here for 17 years.
What are you doing here?
I am into business, I have a shop here and I buy goods here and send to Nigeria and as well, sell here.
You left Nigeria to come and do business here?
Yes
How is the business going?
By the grace of God, all is well even though it is not easy but we are doing our best.
When last did you go to Nigeria?
For a very long time I didn’t go home. It was last November (2011) that I went home.
How is the Nigerian community here?
The Nigerian community is very large. We have more than 500 Nigerians in Indonesia.
Why did you decide to come to Indonesia?
I was actually a teacher in Nigeria but found out that I could not support my family. And you know the condition in Nigeria; the extended family system is the major problem we have because you cannot be out there fending only for yourself or your immediate family. Others are there to be looked after. So when the demand became greater, I felt I had to look for greener pasture in order to be able to take care of these things.
So you came to Indonesia straight?
A friend of mine told me that here (Indonesia) is good. I was in Benin Republic (Cotonou) and when things weren’t easy for me, he gave me the idea of coming over here. He said there were job opportunities. Initially I came over to work and when I found out that even Indonesians themselves are looking for jobs because it is not easy for them as well, so I decided to try my hands on something else.
How did you make it, from joblessness to an accomplished businessman and President of Nigerians in Diaspora here?
When I came over and there was no job for me, I found out that there were some merchants from Nigeria that came here looking for items to purchase. I therefore started going out to find these things for them and most of them that were interested started buying from me. At times I will bring like 200 or 300 shirts to them and sometimes they even ask for more. So, gradually we started building our business.
As a Nigerian, what does it take to stay in Indonesia?
Indonesia as a country is welcoming to everybody. But just like every other country, there are all these racial problems…if you decide to stay in Indonesia at least for a little while you will have to go through all these things but you need to endure because you have a purpose. It is not easy living outside your own country because you will be confronted with many economic issues: you have to pay your house rent, electricity, your shop and a lot of other expenses as well as try to meet up with the demands from home.
What are some of the businesses that Nigerians are into here?
There are three major things that Nigerians do here. Most of us buy clothing other electronic items as well as raw materials that we send to Nigeria. If you are fortunate and you have a good representative in Nigeria that handles these things properly and sends back the money to you, then you will be able to make it. Then, there is another section of Nigerians that veered into illegalities here which include dealing in drugs and also 419 (Advanced Fee Fraud). We have a lot of them but we have been doing our best to discourage such people because the image of Nigeria is much greater than our individual needs.
We understand that many Nigerians are in prisons here. Are you aware of their predicaments?
Yes. We have so many Nigerians in prison here, more than 300 of them. Most of them are on life sentences; some have been jailed for 10 or 15 years and some of them are dead row.
What level of assistance do you receive from the Nigerian Embassy in Indonesia, giving the challenges you are facing?
It is quite unfortunate that we have a country as big as Nigeria with abundant human and natural resources but our leaders cannot take care of our people. The embassy here is doing practically nothing for Nigerians. At times, a lot of people look at our embassy just like a mini mosque because it has been turned into something else and that is why most of the time we have been trying to request that Nigerians do not just see Indonesia as a Muslim country alone and therefore only a Muslim or a core northerner should be sent here as ambassador. There should be flexibility-they should have to change the areas where people come from because majority of us here are from the south. So, we are not saying that a southerner will do it better but he might understand our problems and will be able to act without fear or favour because he is dealing with his own people. We want the federal government which is represented by the embassy here to do something about
these people that are into illegal things by flushing them out and re-branding the name of Nigeria. That is exactly what we need here.
Don’t you think that the Nigerian embassy here is overwhelmed by the problems Nigerians caused themselves and the federal government is also embarrassed by what Nigerians are doing such us bringing in drugs which attracts death penalty in Indonesia?
That might be correct but then if government said it is overwhelmed, what do you expect of individuals? I don’t think Nigerians here bring many troubles to the embassy. .. most of the troubles are brought to the organization (Nigerians in Diaspora) and we as a union approach the embassy. As a union, we carry much of the burden than the embassy does. The problem we have here is that the Nigerian government does not behave like other governments. Many Nigerians have died in an absurd manner here. What we are saying is if a Nigerian commits an offence, the law is there to take care of it. Arbitrary killings of Nigerians should be stopped. We have lost more than 90 Nigerians here that were just killed based on mere allegations.
Who killed them?
Of course, it is the police here.
Is it only Nigerians that are being treated this way?
Nigerians suffer most.
Why did you say this?
This is because when you look at the quantum of the substance that is said to have been recovered from Nigerians and the amount that is recovered from other nationals, yet nothing happens to those people (other nationals). But if it where Nigerians, they would be instantly killed.
Why do you think they are particularly harsh on Nigeria?
It is because of the weakness of our government. They know that Nigerian government cannot do anything and the embassy here does not even care. The police here will tell you ‘go away, you don’t have an embassy’ right in your face. There was one particular case that involved a Nigerian. Then, the case was in court and the guy called Hilary was acquitted by the court but the police said ‘no’ he cannot be acquitted. They started beating him right in the court room and our embassy officials were there but nothing was done. They beat the guy and dragged him back to the detention room and he is now on the death row. Somebody who was acquitted in the presence of the embassy officials and they have not done anything up to this point. There was another case of a Nigerian whose genitals were chopped off. If I knew we are going to have this interview, I would have brought the pictures for you to see. Probably, I would take your addresses and send these
pictures to you. The man wrote a letter to our ambassador here. He wrote a letter to the association and sent us those pictures. I and the junior secretary here went to see him in the prison. Even Indonesians were very angry. The prison officials were very angry because they could not understand how a human being could have been inflicted such an injury by someone else. Up till this day, the boy is still in prison and still attending court with the injury.
But despite these challenges, how and why are Nigerians coming to settle here instead of staying at home?
There is no way anybody can come to Indonesia illegally considering the distance between Jakarta and Nigeria. Most Nigerians came in legally but along the line, probably, they lost their legality by overstaying. That is why we are saying the embassy must be active. We are not saying that the embassy must do everything but it should be working with the association. We are the people in the field, we live with these people, we know the bad people and we want the embassy to work with us and make sure that we flush them out. The embassy should help us in enlightening Nigerians on the dangers of coming here if they do not have any legal thing to do. I think if they are enlightened, properly informed, they would not take the risk because some of them were deceived into coming to this place with promises of plump jobs and things like that. We know the situation in Nigeria where graduates are roaming the streets without anything to do. So, at the slightest
opportunity, they would be willing to come. Let us educate them properly, let them know the dangers faced by those who do not have something legal doing here.
How does the attitude of these con men affect you as officials of Nigerians that are residing here?
It affects us because most of us that are staying here legally bear the shame of seeing our people being shot on the streets. Every Nigerian is your blood…that psychological effect is there. It also affects us because we are denied certain things that other nationals are easily given. For example, you have to be screened and screened before you will be given a Residence Permit here. You cannot open a bank account as easily as other nationals do. So, there are also areas that you will not be accepted to live in because nobody will be willing to give you his house if he knows that you are a Nigerian. These are the multiple effects with very adverse effect on our citizens.
What do you think are the incentives that are attracting Nigerians to come here?
Like I said, it is the non-existence of opportunities in Nigeria that draws many Nigerians to come here in expectation of greener pasture. If we have these opportunities at home, I don’t think even a mad man will like to leave his house. When you look at it generally, you will find out that it doesn’t tell well about Nigeria because majority of our youth are outside the country. These are people that could have helped and worked in the industries that we have in Nigeria and develop the country. But most of them are outside because these opportunities are not there for them. I think from the time we started this interview, if it were in Nigeria, the light would have gone off. I wonder how people can survive without electricity.
You have been away for a very long time. Do you still believe in Nigeria and from how you see things are being done here, what do think our leaders should do to help the people?
Thank you very much for this question. To me, Nigeria is even better than the United States of America. I believe in this because Nigeria is my country. That is where God created me. God is not a fool to have created me a Nigerian and I believe that Nigeria will do better than most other countries that are ahead of us today if we believe in our country. This is because we have everything that it takes to be great. We have the natural resources, we have the human resources. There was an article I was reading the other day where the writer was saying that Nigerians are the most educated immigrants in America. What are we doing with all these things? We drove them (intellectuals) away because we did not give them the opportunities to work in the country and help Nigeria grow. Criminals have overtaken government, people who are only there to loot. They only think about themselves. So, as you asked me, there are many similarities between Indonesia and
Nigeria. Indonesia is a tropical country, Nigeria is a tropical country. Most of the things that can grow in Indonesia can grow in Nigeria as well. Indonesia is very diverse- ethnically, they have so many ethnic groups in Indonesia. So, the problems we have in Nigeria about ethnicity is here as well but here, they have not allowed it to over shadow the interest of the country. Let us have the best, from whichever ethnic group that person comes from. The important thing is for that person to have the interest of the country at heart. There is corruption here (Indonesia) as well but we all have seen how they are dealing with their corrupt officials. As soon as that (corrupt) person is caught, Courts does not grant bail. Courts here do not grant bail on corruption cases. You will be there (behind the bars) until your case is over. But in Nigeria, somebody will loot billions and our courts will grant him bail, allowing him the opportunity to go and
temper with evidence when he is outside and also be able to reach the higher authorities that would work for him. Here in Indonesia, the reverse is the case…they do not grant bail to corrupt people. Nigeria will do very well if we can put ethnicity behind us. Religion should be a thing between man and God but religion in Nigeria is being politicized. Even if we look at these people that call themselves religious people, we find out that the worse people we find in the society are only using religion for their own selfish interests which is very bad for us. Here (Indonesia) religion does not play such a role. Though everybody knows that Indonesia is a Muslim country, you have seen things for yourself. Their culture is similar; they eat together, play together and go to clubs together. There is no segregation. That good mix really helps them to develop relationships. They are relating very well much better than what obtains in Nigeria. We should give
religion the place that it belongs to because it is not something that should be used as politics.
Government in Nigeria is saying Nigeria will be among the 20 top economically advanced countries in the world. Do you share this vision?
I hope so. My prayer is that this should become possible but somebody should tell me how you can achieve that without electricity! How can we achieve it? The political will might be there but what we see on ground does not support that. You cannot do it without infrastructure, electricity is epileptic. How could you be dreaming so high?
What does it take a Nigerian to be a citizen of Indonesia?
What takes a Nigerian to be an Indonesian is not different from what takes other people to be citizens here. You are either married to a citizen of this country. Then after the marriage, first three years would be given to you. Then you will be given another five years. Then after that, if you wish, you can apply for citizenship. It is either you are married here or you have a registered business.
If you have the opportunity to talk to young Nigerians who are wishing to come to Indonesia, how would you address them?
I would only ask them to come with a different mindset from the people we have here…let them come with clear mind. Let them have something legal in their minds that they would come and do. They should seek advice first, either from the Indonesian embassy or from their peers here in Indonesia. They should come with good intentions. They should drop the idea of coming to do drug or do 419 here because these things are really tarnishing the image of our country.
Why do you think the Indonesian citizens are not fleeing from their country?
Things are much better here. Most of the banks here are positively dealing very well with their people. If you have the opportunity of staying longer, you will see what I mean. The banks give soft loans to individuals. Even roadside hawkers have the chance to obtain loans from banks. The government as well, is always ready to provide job opportunities for their citizens. There is no government that shares money to citizens but citizens were given job opportunities. Let them (citizens) have something to do to fend for themselves and their families. The banks here are much better than the Nigerian banks because they are involved in every facet of development in this country. They are involved in constructions and all infrastructural development, including trading, agriculture, manufacturing, textile, just name it. But Nigerian banks…. at times I find it difficult to understand the sort of banking they are doing. Who are they really working for? Is it the
people or the investors in the banks? It is very difficult to access money in Nigerian banks. I have not seen where Nigerian banks are directly involved in development. I think they should device better ways of helping the Nigerian economy.
Do they have poor people here?
There are poor people all over the world but we should remember that there are three basic things that every human being needs. These include food, clothing and shelter. If you are provided these things, other ones are additions. Here in Indonesia, there is nobody that does not eat three square meals a day and no poor person sleeps outside. Those people who sell even cigarettes by the roadside, however small the place is, have a television there and they can watch programmes for 24 hours-smiling away their problems. But a Nigerian that has a television in his house does not have electricity. The beggars here, the wretched here, the poor people here are even more nationalistic than our politicians in Nigeria. They are more patriotic than the politicians that we have in Nigeria because they are talking about becoming millionaires. They are talking about being able to take care of themselves-they are not being too ambitious because the government provides
their basic needs. They have toilets on the streets and water is running and therefore, there is no way you can see excreta by the roadside.
Can you compare the cost of living here and in Nigeria?
It depends on how you look at it and the kind of life you want to live but Indonesians are people who like to live according to what they can afford. It is not like in Nigeria where somebody who is pushing a wheel barrow will be dreaming of building a two-storey building. Here in Indonesia, even if you ask somebody to go into certain business, he will ask you how? Meaning he does not have the money. There is the need to educate the people that not everybody must be a millionaire. But in Nigeria, everybody thinks he must be a millionaire and that is why we have much crime.
Have you made attempt to approach the Nigerian National Assembly on the plight of Nigerians here?
I reached out to the National Assembly in my capacity as the President of Nigerians in Diaspora, Indonesian chapter. And whatever I brought before them was discussed either at an executive meeting or in a general meeting. In Nigeria, nothing works…nothing seems to be working. We were told we have a representative in the Federal House of Representatives. There was time that Abike Dabiri came and I gave her some of my write-ups. I put these things (problems we are facing here) in writing and gave her but up till this time, she has not communicated anything to us. It is very difficult for us to talk to these people and how to go about addressing the problems because we are not in Nigeria. One Mr Dankano that came here said he is the director in the chancery office of the ministry of foreign affairs. I asked him to create an avenue for us so that Nigerians can hear from us living in Indonesia. Up to this point, there has not been any response from him
though he was formally here before he was posted to Singapore. So even if there are avenues for us to talk, there are some people who are standing on our ways which is a big problem.
Finally, what call do you have for the Nigerian government?
MY call is that the government should wake up to the responsibility of Nigerians including those that are at home and those that are living abroad and they should understand that allowing our youth to be roaming on the streets of other cities of the world is to the detriment of the country. This is because it is the youth that would develop our country. They should put things in place that would attract the youth to go back home.
Thank you very much
It is my pleasure
Written by Hamza Idris, who was in Indonesia
Sunday, 20 May 2012 05:00
TRUST
Mr. Kalu Joseph Okafor lived in Indonesia for over 17 years. He is the President of the Nigerians in Diaspora there. In this interview, he said as many Nigerians live decent lives there, over 300 are languishing in jail as 90 others were killed extra-judiciary. He lamented the attitude of Nigerian authorities towards its citizens and wondered how a third world country has become a hub for African immigrants.
May we know you please?
I am Kalu Joseph Okafor. I am a native of Omo Ezechi, Bende local government area of Abia State.
How long have you been in Indonesia?
I have been here for 17 years.
What are you doing here?
I am into business, I have a shop here and I buy goods here and send to Nigeria and as well, sell here.
You left Nigeria to come and do business here?
Yes
How is the business going?
By the grace of God, all is well even though it is not easy but we are doing our best.
When last did you go to Nigeria?
For a very long time I didn’t go home. It was last November (2011) that I went home.
How is the Nigerian community here?
The Nigerian community is very large. We have more than 500 Nigerians in Indonesia.
Why did you decide to come to Indonesia?
I was actually a teacher in Nigeria but found out that I could not support my family. And you know the condition in Nigeria; the extended family system is the major problem we have because you cannot be out there fending only for yourself or your immediate family. Others are there to be looked after. So when the demand became greater, I felt I had to look for greener pasture in order to be able to take care of these things.
So you came to Indonesia straight?
A friend of mine told me that here (Indonesia) is good. I was in Benin Republic (Cotonou) and when things weren’t easy for me, he gave me the idea of coming over here. He said there were job opportunities. Initially I came over to work and when I found out that even Indonesians themselves are looking for jobs because it is not easy for them as well, so I decided to try my hands on something else.
How did you make it, from joblessness to an accomplished businessman and President of Nigerians in Diaspora here?
When I came over and there was no job for me, I found out that there were some merchants from Nigeria that came here looking for items to purchase. I therefore started going out to find these things for them and most of them that were interested started buying from me. At times I will bring like 200 or 300 shirts to them and sometimes they even ask for more. So, gradually we started building our business.
As a Nigerian, what does it take to stay in Indonesia?
Indonesia as a country is welcoming to everybody. But just like every other country, there are all these racial problems…if you decide to stay in Indonesia at least for a little while you will have to go through all these things but you need to endure because you have a purpose. It is not easy living outside your own country because you will be confronted with many economic issues: you have to pay your house rent, electricity, your shop and a lot of other expenses as well as try to meet up with the demands from home.
What are some of the businesses that Nigerians are into here?
There are three major things that Nigerians do here. Most of us buy clothing other electronic items as well as raw materials that we send to Nigeria. If you are fortunate and you have a good representative in Nigeria that handles these things properly and sends back the money to you, then you will be able to make it. Then, there is another section of Nigerians that veered into illegalities here which include dealing in drugs and also 419 (Advanced Fee Fraud). We have a lot of them but we have been doing our best to discourage such people because the image of Nigeria is much greater than our individual needs.
We understand that many Nigerians are in prisons here. Are you aware of their predicaments?
Yes. We have so many Nigerians in prison here, more than 300 of them. Most of them are on life sentences; some have been jailed for 10 or 15 years and some of them are dead row.
What level of assistance do you receive from the Nigerian Embassy in Indonesia, giving the challenges you are facing?
It is quite unfortunate that we have a country as big as Nigeria with abundant human and natural resources but our leaders cannot take care of our people. The embassy here is doing practically nothing for Nigerians. At times, a lot of people look at our embassy just like a mini mosque because it has been turned into something else and that is why most of the time we have been trying to request that Nigerians do not just see Indonesia as a Muslim country alone and therefore only a Muslim or a core northerner should be sent here as ambassador. There should be flexibility-they should have to change the areas where people come from because majority of us here are from the south. So, we are not saying that a southerner will do it better but he might understand our problems and will be able to act without fear or favour because he is dealing with his own people. We want the federal government which is represented by the embassy here to do something about
these people that are into illegal things by flushing them out and re-branding the name of Nigeria. That is exactly what we need here.
Don’t you think that the Nigerian embassy here is overwhelmed by the problems Nigerians caused themselves and the federal government is also embarrassed by what Nigerians are doing such us bringing in drugs which attracts death penalty in Indonesia?
That might be correct but then if government said it is overwhelmed, what do you expect of individuals? I don’t think Nigerians here bring many troubles to the embassy. .. most of the troubles are brought to the organization (Nigerians in Diaspora) and we as a union approach the embassy. As a union, we carry much of the burden than the embassy does. The problem we have here is that the Nigerian government does not behave like other governments. Many Nigerians have died in an absurd manner here. What we are saying is if a Nigerian commits an offence, the law is there to take care of it. Arbitrary killings of Nigerians should be stopped. We have lost more than 90 Nigerians here that were just killed based on mere allegations.
Who killed them?
Of course, it is the police here.
Is it only Nigerians that are being treated this way?
Nigerians suffer most.
Why did you say this?
This is because when you look at the quantum of the substance that is said to have been recovered from Nigerians and the amount that is recovered from other nationals, yet nothing happens to those people (other nationals). But if it where Nigerians, they would be instantly killed.
Why do you think they are particularly harsh on Nigeria?
It is because of the weakness of our government. They know that Nigerian government cannot do anything and the embassy here does not even care. The police here will tell you ‘go away, you don’t have an embassy’ right in your face. There was one particular case that involved a Nigerian. Then, the case was in court and the guy called Hilary was acquitted by the court but the police said ‘no’ he cannot be acquitted. They started beating him right in the court room and our embassy officials were there but nothing was done. They beat the guy and dragged him back to the detention room and he is now on the death row. Somebody who was acquitted in the presence of the embassy officials and they have not done anything up to this point. There was another case of a Nigerian whose genitals were chopped off. If I knew we are going to have this interview, I would have brought the pictures for you to see. Probably, I would take your addresses and send these
pictures to you. The man wrote a letter to our ambassador here. He wrote a letter to the association and sent us those pictures. I and the junior secretary here went to see him in the prison. Even Indonesians were very angry. The prison officials were very angry because they could not understand how a human being could have been inflicted such an injury by someone else. Up till this day, the boy is still in prison and still attending court with the injury.
But despite these challenges, how and why are Nigerians coming to settle here instead of staying at home?
There is no way anybody can come to Indonesia illegally considering the distance between Jakarta and Nigeria. Most Nigerians came in legally but along the line, probably, they lost their legality by overstaying. That is why we are saying the embassy must be active. We are not saying that the embassy must do everything but it should be working with the association. We are the people in the field, we live with these people, we know the bad people and we want the embassy to work with us and make sure that we flush them out. The embassy should help us in enlightening Nigerians on the dangers of coming here if they do not have any legal thing to do. I think if they are enlightened, properly informed, they would not take the risk because some of them were deceived into coming to this place with promises of plump jobs and things like that. We know the situation in Nigeria where graduates are roaming the streets without anything to do. So, at the slightest
opportunity, they would be willing to come. Let us educate them properly, let them know the dangers faced by those who do not have something legal doing here.
How does the attitude of these con men affect you as officials of Nigerians that are residing here?
It affects us because most of us that are staying here legally bear the shame of seeing our people being shot on the streets. Every Nigerian is your blood…that psychological effect is there. It also affects us because we are denied certain things that other nationals are easily given. For example, you have to be screened and screened before you will be given a Residence Permit here. You cannot open a bank account as easily as other nationals do. So, there are also areas that you will not be accepted to live in because nobody will be willing to give you his house if he knows that you are a Nigerian. These are the multiple effects with very adverse effect on our citizens.
What do you think are the incentives that are attracting Nigerians to come here?
Like I said, it is the non-existence of opportunities in Nigeria that draws many Nigerians to come here in expectation of greener pasture. If we have these opportunities at home, I don’t think even a mad man will like to leave his house. When you look at it generally, you will find out that it doesn’t tell well about Nigeria because majority of our youth are outside the country. These are people that could have helped and worked in the industries that we have in Nigeria and develop the country. But most of them are outside because these opportunities are not there for them. I think from the time we started this interview, if it were in Nigeria, the light would have gone off. I wonder how people can survive without electricity.
You have been away for a very long time. Do you still believe in Nigeria and from how you see things are being done here, what do think our leaders should do to help the people?
Thank you very much for this question. To me, Nigeria is even better than the United States of America. I believe in this because Nigeria is my country. That is where God created me. God is not a fool to have created me a Nigerian and I believe that Nigeria will do better than most other countries that are ahead of us today if we believe in our country. This is because we have everything that it takes to be great. We have the natural resources, we have the human resources. There was an article I was reading the other day where the writer was saying that Nigerians are the most educated immigrants in America. What are we doing with all these things? We drove them (intellectuals) away because we did not give them the opportunities to work in the country and help Nigeria grow. Criminals have overtaken government, people who are only there to loot. They only think about themselves. So, as you asked me, there are many similarities between Indonesia and
Nigeria. Indonesia is a tropical country, Nigeria is a tropical country. Most of the things that can grow in Indonesia can grow in Nigeria as well. Indonesia is very diverse- ethnically, they have so many ethnic groups in Indonesia. So, the problems we have in Nigeria about ethnicity is here as well but here, they have not allowed it to over shadow the interest of the country. Let us have the best, from whichever ethnic group that person comes from. The important thing is for that person to have the interest of the country at heart. There is corruption here (Indonesia) as well but we all have seen how they are dealing with their corrupt officials. As soon as that (corrupt) person is caught, Courts does not grant bail. Courts here do not grant bail on corruption cases. You will be there (behind the bars) until your case is over. But in Nigeria, somebody will loot billions and our courts will grant him bail, allowing him the opportunity to go and
temper with evidence when he is outside and also be able to reach the higher authorities that would work for him. Here in Indonesia, the reverse is the case…they do not grant bail to corrupt people. Nigeria will do very well if we can put ethnicity behind us. Religion should be a thing between man and God but religion in Nigeria is being politicized. Even if we look at these people that call themselves religious people, we find out that the worse people we find in the society are only using religion for their own selfish interests which is very bad for us. Here (Indonesia) religion does not play such a role. Though everybody knows that Indonesia is a Muslim country, you have seen things for yourself. Their culture is similar; they eat together, play together and go to clubs together. There is no segregation. That good mix really helps them to develop relationships. They are relating very well much better than what obtains in Nigeria. We should give
religion the place that it belongs to because it is not something that should be used as politics.
Government in Nigeria is saying Nigeria will be among the 20 top economically advanced countries in the world. Do you share this vision?
I hope so. My prayer is that this should become possible but somebody should tell me how you can achieve that without electricity! How can we achieve it? The political will might be there but what we see on ground does not support that. You cannot do it without infrastructure, electricity is epileptic. How could you be dreaming so high?
What does it take a Nigerian to be a citizen of Indonesia?
What takes a Nigerian to be an Indonesian is not different from what takes other people to be citizens here. You are either married to a citizen of this country. Then after the marriage, first three years would be given to you. Then you will be given another five years. Then after that, if you wish, you can apply for citizenship. It is either you are married here or you have a registered business.
If you have the opportunity to talk to young Nigerians who are wishing to come to Indonesia, how would you address them?
I would only ask them to come with a different mindset from the people we have here…let them come with clear mind. Let them have something legal in their minds that they would come and do. They should seek advice first, either from the Indonesian embassy or from their peers here in Indonesia. They should come with good intentions. They should drop the idea of coming to do drug or do 419 here because these things are really tarnishing the image of our country.
Why do you think the Indonesian citizens are not fleeing from their country?
Things are much better here. Most of the banks here are positively dealing very well with their people. If you have the opportunity of staying longer, you will see what I mean. The banks give soft loans to individuals. Even roadside hawkers have the chance to obtain loans from banks. The government as well, is always ready to provide job opportunities for their citizens. There is no government that shares money to citizens but citizens were given job opportunities. Let them (citizens) have something to do to fend for themselves and their families. The banks here are much better than the Nigerian banks because they are involved in every facet of development in this country. They are involved in constructions and all infrastructural development, including trading, agriculture, manufacturing, textile, just name it. But Nigerian banks…. at times I find it difficult to understand the sort of banking they are doing. Who are they really working for? Is it the
people or the investors in the banks? It is very difficult to access money in Nigerian banks. I have not seen where Nigerian banks are directly involved in development. I think they should device better ways of helping the Nigerian economy.
Do they have poor people here?
There are poor people all over the world but we should remember that there are three basic things that every human being needs. These include food, clothing and shelter. If you are provided these things, other ones are additions. Here in Indonesia, there is nobody that does not eat three square meals a day and no poor person sleeps outside. Those people who sell even cigarettes by the roadside, however small the place is, have a television there and they can watch programmes for 24 hours-smiling away their problems. But a Nigerian that has a television in his house does not have electricity. The beggars here, the wretched here, the poor people here are even more nationalistic than our politicians in Nigeria. They are more patriotic than the politicians that we have in Nigeria because they are talking about becoming millionaires. They are talking about being able to take care of themselves-they are not being too ambitious because the government provides
their basic needs. They have toilets on the streets and water is running and therefore, there is no way you can see excreta by the roadside.
Can you compare the cost of living here and in Nigeria?
It depends on how you look at it and the kind of life you want to live but Indonesians are people who like to live according to what they can afford. It is not like in Nigeria where somebody who is pushing a wheel barrow will be dreaming of building a two-storey building. Here in Indonesia, even if you ask somebody to go into certain business, he will ask you how? Meaning he does not have the money. There is the need to educate the people that not everybody must be a millionaire. But in Nigeria, everybody thinks he must be a millionaire and that is why we have much crime.
Have you made attempt to approach the Nigerian National Assembly on the plight of Nigerians here?
I reached out to the National Assembly in my capacity as the President of Nigerians in Diaspora, Indonesian chapter. And whatever I brought before them was discussed either at an executive meeting or in a general meeting. In Nigeria, nothing works…nothing seems to be working. We were told we have a representative in the Federal House of Representatives. There was time that Abike Dabiri came and I gave her some of my write-ups. I put these things (problems we are facing here) in writing and gave her but up till this time, she has not communicated anything to us. It is very difficult for us to talk to these people and how to go about addressing the problems because we are not in Nigeria. One Mr Dankano that came here said he is the director in the chancery office of the ministry of foreign affairs. I asked him to create an avenue for us so that Nigerians can hear from us living in Indonesia. Up to this point, there has not been any response from him
though he was formally here before he was posted to Singapore. So even if there are avenues for us to talk, there are some people who are standing on our ways which is a big problem.
Finally, what call do you have for the Nigerian government?
MY call is that the government should wake up to the responsibility of Nigerians including those that are at home and those that are living abroad and they should understand that allowing our youth to be roaming on the streets of other cities of the world is to the detriment of the country. This is because it is the youth that would develop our country. They should put things in place that would attract the youth to go back home.
Thank you very much
It is my pleasure
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